Episode #024 How to Bird Launch through Empty Nesting as a Midlife Woman with Guest Sheena Sabharwal

Midlife Unlimited® is all about having those conversations we just don’t have enough. Because not talking about what is on our mind can leave us feeling isolated, thinking no one is interested in how we are feeling or what we are going through.

And Empty Nesting is a prime example. 

So join your Host Kate Porter The Midlife Metamorphosis Coach and her guest Brand and Family Photographer Sheena Sabharwal for Episode 024 as they talk about How to Bird Launch through Empty Nesting.

Every woman’s experiences of this pivotal and often painful time are different, so bird launchers Kate and Sheena share insights, inspiration and anecdotes from their own Empty Nest Syndrome journey. 

And they talk through the four-step P.L.A.N. Kate has devised to help Empty Nesters everywhere navigate the three stages of grief, relief and joy in her free ebook Your Empty Nest Epiphany – A Beginner’s Guide to Bird Launching. To get your free copy, DM or email Kate.

Connect with Sheena at

https://www.instagram.com/sheena_sabharwal_photography/

https://www.sheenasabharwal.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Welcome to Midlife Unlimited, the podcast for women who want more. I'm your host, Kate Porter, the midlife metamorphosis coach, and I know what it's like to feel stuck navigating the midlife maze. I've looked in the mirror and thought, who is that woman? So Midlife Unlimited is here to let you know you are not alone. You don't have to put on a brave face and put up with it. You don't have to play it safe. Midlife Unlimited is all about ripping off that mask and telling it like it really is, smashing stereotypes, busting myths and misbehaving, because our second spring is our time to shine our way. So welcome to today's episode. Empty nesting, or the more empowering term, bird launching. Everyone talks about it in August, September, even October but then it seems to fall off the radar and now it's April many of you midlife mums can feel forgotten and you don't like to talk about it because no one else is but it's real and so are the complex melting pot of emotions that it brings. So it's time to stop putting on a brave face and start talking all things empty nesting. So I'm delighted to be joined today by my friend, fellow bird launcher and brand and family photographer Sheena Sabawal to talk about how to bird launch through empty nesting. So welcome Sheena, it's fabulous to have you here.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

Hi Kate, it's good to be here and it's also really nice to be able to talk about this openly because it's one of those quiet conversations that you tend to have and pretend that you're okay. No,

SPEAKER_02: 2:01

absolutely and as you know Midlife Unlimited is all about having those conversations that we don't have enough and keeping the conversation going and some people might say empty nesting in April, Isn't that like talking about Christmas in July? But no, it's not, is it?

SPEAKER_00: 2:21

Oh, far from it. You know, I think when you're at this point in time, you're just trying really hard to be nice to your teenager as they go through their A-levels. And I know that sounds really weird, but it's quite hard to be nice to a stressed teenager. Then you're just glad the exams are over. You get that moment of celebration, hopefully. and then it hits you it hits you that they're going there's so many distractions on the way that you don't i don't think i fully took it in or what it meant and

SPEAKER_02: 2:57

for me i mean my little boy my six foot two little boy is 23 now but we were covered we were covered a levels and then covered off to uni and oh my goodness talk about empty nesting plus some

SPEAKER_00: 3:15

that must have been pretty brutal actually. I mean, that whole period was brutal. And I think trying to get through normal but seminal points in your life through COVID was just awful. And I think Oz ended up playing out a little bit differently because he got his results and said, right, I'm gonna do that gap year. And everything that you thought was going to happen, didn't happen. And there was a lot of readjustment. And we say, yeah, yeah, sure, that's a good idea. Where's your plan? Not because he needed a plan, because I needed the plan.

SPEAKER_02: 3:55

Well, I love that you've just used that word, because later on... We're actually going to be sharing my plan that I devised last year when I wrote my free e-book, Your Empty Nesting Epiphany, A Beginner's Guide to Bird Launching, which I know you've read, Sheena. And we're going to give a little taste. We're going to talk through that because it really is the book that I wish I'd read when my baby went. And it's like what to expect when you're expecting something. two decades on so we'll we'll come to that later on but i think now as well obviously with easter approaching it is a time you had them kind of they go in october and then they come back for christmas and i know it's that whole thing of you almost want christmas to be extra special and there's you almost put more pressure on yourself to make it the perfect christmas not perfectly imperfect which is what i'm all about and then they go again And now they're coming back for the Easter break. It's stop start, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 5:03

It is stop start. Then you get that random call on a Tuesday saying, I think I'm coming home this weekend. And you think, I might need to do some grocery shopping. Because you know that they're going to go back with their bags packed. There's a little readjustment of plans. And I don't know if it's a mum thing. I don't know if it's an Indian mum thing. But when he comes back, I just want to feed him. And I've been thinking a lot about this. I think you feed them because that's kind of all you can really do for them. They're busy exploring the world. Even if you're trying to be supportive emotionally, they either don't don't need it or they think they don't need it. So the only tangible thing left is food. I never thought I'd be that woman, but it turns out that I am.

SPEAKER_02: 5:56

But it also, though, I've just thought of this, it also ties in nicely with the, and I don't know where I heard this phrase, the whole bird launching, but it is like the mother bird thing again, isn't it? About feeding your young and nurturing them. And I say, we are going to start talking about the plan, which works. So you'll want to know more about this. But I'd like to really say that when it comes to empty nesting, bird launching. There are no rules. There's no right or wrong. Every mum and dad, and dads, if you're tuning in, welcome, because it affects dads too, that there's no right or wrong. Every woman's journey is different, just as every relationship between mum and and child is different isn't it and that can be tough as well because your friends you know the mums that were at the school gate some of them could be taking it in their stride and again that's a reason why we bottle it up I think

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

yeah absolutely and I think we all do like to paint a really positive

SPEAKER_02: 7:07

picture those old rose-tinted glasses as well, isn't it? Like, oh, everything was... And it wasn't. They were a pain in the bum. Oh, no, far from it. Yeah. Or we were a pain in... You know, we were the nagging mum or the overprotective, the helicopter mum, which I still am.

SPEAKER_00: 7:29

Yeah, I tick that box. I try not to, but I'm there, ticking it regularly.

SPEAKER_02: 7:34

Absolutely. Now, obviously... Empty nesting syndrome. That in itself gives it a negative label as far as I'm concerned. But there are, although we just said there's no typical journey, it is broken down into three stages. Grief, relief and joy. And I find that word joy so odd. That's why I use the word epiphany instead. But it is a time of grieving. to start with and you do feel pain

SPEAKER_00: 8:12

absolutely there's this person that's been living in your house for 18 years and then they go of course you're going to miss them and it sounds really dramatic but I always it felt like someone had turned the light off in our house and I couldn't quite turn it back on I think it took me about three weeks to turn that light back on And I didn't expect that. You think you've prepared yourself. You know they're going for all the right reasons. You know you've wanted this. You've wanted it for them. You've wanted it for yourself. But somebody's just gone from your life. And even though they're a phone call away, they're having far too much fun to think about calling you. You get text messages, but it's not like they're in front of you.

SPEAKER_02: 9:01

No. No, that's really, that's, oh, that's really got me, you saying that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:07

Because it is, no, it is. I got myself, I'd forgotten that feeling. You get used to the revolving door, you know, after a while, but at the start, it was like, oh.

SPEAKER_02: 9:21

And it does give way, although it does still blink and hurt, it does give way to the second stage of relief. And I think, again, we'll touch more on this in a bit, but I think it is that growing knowledge that, they are getting on with it that they are finding their feet and that you're getting on with it as well but you will there will still be moments as you say and you don't not just when you're on your own it'll be silly things that catch you oh

SPEAKER_00: 9:48

yeah absolutely and um then they come back and you realize they're still the little kid that you sent off he's actually really good with laundry but you're just thinking do you not need to do this or do you not need to get get something done and I think in that even just in that short period of way they learn so much that their methods of doing things are so different and you just have to be able to trust them I remember nagging my son to get summer jobs and I thought he was doing nothing it's like you know how many hours of TikTok can you watch he'd apply for about 15 to 20 jobs And you just, you know, sometimes you don't see what's going on, but they're moving in the right direction. Sometimes it's just not always at your pace or your approach. And I think you end up learning that massively, that things will happen and things will move forward, just not the way you would do them.

SPEAKER_02: 10:51

That's a lot of it, isn't it? And we talk a lot about control and this is really a time for, and we'll talk about accepting in a bit, but it is really accepting what you can't control because you can spend so much time agonising and worrying and they should be doing it this way, they should be, and that can lead to arguments, that can lead to guilt trips and...

SPEAKER_00: 11:15

All of it, all of it. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is actually... to keep my mouth shut that's probably good advice in a lot of things but especially with teenagers they're finding their way and they're doing they're doing a good job of it more than you sometimes realize

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

one memory gosh that just sprang to mind we were talking about your boy coming back you know i'm coming home i remember in finley my my son's first term at uni uh he phoned up and he said oh oh do you fancy coming up to see me just for the day on sunday and you know what i in my head i i was ready for him being away not seeing him for eight weeks and i i actually said after a lot of thought no because i knew how awful i would feel it sounds ridiculous But the thought of going to see him just for a few hours to then say goodbye again in those early days, the pain of saying goodbye again. And we didn't go. And on the Sunday evening, he tested positive for Covid and his whole uni flat in halls went into lockdown independently for two weeks. So afterwards, he was like, actually, mum, it was probably a very good idea you didn't come because you and dad would probably have caught it. But, and I felt selfish and guilty for saying no to going to see him. because I suppose I was trying to protect myself because I'd got to almost a plateau having him being gone for a month. I was almost like, right, I'm all right now for another month till he comes back for Christmas or whatever. But

SPEAKER_00: 13:10

wasn't that a weird

SPEAKER_02: 13:11

thing though?

SPEAKER_00: 13:12

And I love the fact that he actually said to you, it's a good thing you didn't come because my first thought would be like, oh my goodness, I didn't see him and now I won't be able to see him for two weeks and the guilt would kick in. And I think sometimes their perspective is so valuable and so wise. And I don't know if it's a boy thing. I don't want to make stereotypes, but they're far more practical than we realize. And I think I had a bit of a baptism of fire because my son ended up, when he left for his gap year, it was seven weeks abroad working and there was no chance of seeing him. And I just remember thinking this really is his first step in the big bad world. Not that it's big and bad, there are things going on, but generally they'll be okay. And I think because he did that when he went to university, there was more trust. I don't know if it was a little more trust or a lot more trust, but there was more trust that he was self-sufficient or could be.

UNKNOWN: 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:24

Because I'm wondering as well, I mean, obviously, my boy, he was at grammar school. He was at day school. I'm sure there are lots of mums and dads listening whose kids, sons, daughters have been at boarding school. And I wonder if I'd be interested to hear feedback on this. If it is very different, the boarding school experience of them going where they might have been going away since the age of 9, 10, 11 years. if that is a different feeling to when they go off to university because or when they go on a gap year or go away to work because it's not just about going to university they might be going to work they might be going into the forces um i wonder because they are approaching adulthood and you know they're going to be getting up to things that they weren't getting up to well perhaps not they might have been getting up to them at boarding school who knows

SPEAKER_00: 15:15

It's really funny because we don't live too far away from my son's primary school and occasionally I bump into his headmaster and I said oh you know Ishan is away he's on a gap year and I just said and he said oh how do you feel about that and I said I really didn't want him to go on one that was you know my feelings at the start and that um uh I just said, you know, he's so young in his year. He's born at the end of July. I didn't think, sorry, I'm going to say this, the most mature child to go away on a gap year. And he just said to me, he said, it's the ones that you don't think should be going on a gap year, the ones who benefit from it the most. And I think it really takes sort of like the wisdom of somebody who's seen children grow up. with that you know being able to stand back from it rather than a parent to be able to say that to you and he was so right you know when my son went abroad he was you know he had to get to work himself work out the transport to get there and he had to find time to do grocery shopping to cook for himself and he managed it all it and i was just like and then there's that little feeling oh i might have done something right no

SPEAKER_02: 16:36

well do you know what that that brings us perfectly and i do like a segue i say every episode more or less but it brings us beautifully into the plan that i've devised and it is literally that listeners p l a n and the first the p you've just hit that nail on the head sheena be proud because even though it may not feel like it right now whether they went in october whether you're now realizing hang on they're doing a levels that means that it's getting very real deep down we wouldn't change it if we even if we could because we've been working towards this for so long so let's all take a minute right now whether you've they've gone recently, they're about to go, or whether you've actually been through it, and this is bringing back memories, because I tell you, listeners, my goose have got bumps on them. Let's take a minute now just to pat ourselves on the back and be proud, say blinking well done for having got them to where they are now, so they are able and willing to go off.

SPEAKER_00: 17:50

Absolutely agree. You know, It's something that we shouldn't be fearful of. It's part of what we wanted and it's part of what, and it's what they wanted. And it is actually, it's actually a moment to be celebrated. It really is. I think them going off is, it's not just, oh, they've done well academically. It's actually, they're just taking the next step into their lives. It just happens to be not under our roof.

SPEAKER_02: 18:20

But I know, and here's I want to pick your brains a minute now as well, in your work role, because one of the many tips in my little book, when you're in the first stages of the plan, photos. Now, I did think, oh, yeah, and it's not in a macabre way, but make sure you get some nice photos of you and said offspring, because... So often, and I know I was guilty, especially the old me, before I actually liked being in photos, I was always the one taking the photos. And when it came to trying to find a photo of me and my child together, there weren't many. So it's a good time to actually get those photos taken, isn't it? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

Definitely. And I just think it doesn't matter what you're taking your photographer off with. Just take the photo. You know, it doesn't matter if there's a finger in it. If there's a teeny bit blurry, it doesn't matter if the light isn't great. Just take the photo. You know, you know, I've got these funny ones of the car fully packed and I love going on road trip type holidays. And I think when I shared that picture on my social media, I just said it's a different kind of road trip because that's what it is. But yeah, take take them. And annoy them but take them I was like why do you have to take a photograph of this and obviously I'm a bit more irritating than normal with photographs but he knows it's just a box he's got a tick for me but yeah don't hold back

SPEAKER_02: 19:58

like Finley learnt that very young and he's actually taught his friends as well because whenever I say like right let's have a photo he knows to put his arm around me or whatever to stand stare smile photo done boom and even if he's with friends he's like look just let her take the photo

SPEAKER_00: 20:15

yeah just just get it done

SPEAKER_02: 20:17

just get it done yeah she won't stop she won't stop until she gets it so

SPEAKER_00: 20:23

Last summer, we went on holiday and both of my sons brought a friend along each. And even though the mums weren't too bothered, I did send a good handful of photos to them via WhatsApp. And they just said, you've got more photos of our children than we have on ours on our holidays. And I thought, well, there you

SPEAKER_02: 20:43

go. So definitely photos. But obviously, that's not forgetting creating magical moments and memories. storing them, and I'm tapping my head here, storing them away up here. And again, it's not in a miserable way, but it is fabulous if you do have, I mean, even a little memory box. If you are in those early days, if you are feeling a bit meh, it's perfectly all right just to want to sit there with a moment to yourself and have a bit of a wallow. There's nothing wrong with that. Just embrace those feelings. Let them come because bottling them up is the worst thing you can do. I

SPEAKER_00: 21:23

think I really allowed myself to feel the pain of him going in those first few weeks. And then once I adjusted to that, it was completely different. And someone said to me a long time ago that he you'll always miss them. But if you know they're happy, it'll hit differently. And I think that's so true. I know that he's happy. I know that he's living his best life. And I miss his presence, but that pain of missing him is not quite the same. And I still remember what my first year at university was like. There was so much to see and so much to discover. And, you know, that's what they are at this age.

SPEAKER_02: 22:13

So true. So true. And that is the L. It is the letting go of that fledgling child. And I love there's a great quote from Jack Kornfield. Letting go does not mean to get rid of. It means to let be. And we let when we let be with compassion, things come and go on their own. And it is that whole thing. Don't be disappointed if they don't text you back straight away. It doesn't mean they don't love you anymore. And this is a time when you think, am I still a mum? What's happened to my role as a mum? But it's all shifting. The boundaries are changing, as you said. Their focus of attention is shifting. Their priorities are shifting. But ours can as well. And that can be the tricky bit, can't it, in this whole letting go?

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

I think it can I think you see change I remember when my son first went off on his gap year and then university you didn't get much back from him And now he'll openly share fun experiences and things that they do. He's down in Bath, and I don't know what kids do these days, but they went to the races. How crazy is that? Yes. I don't know what kids do. They have a special university bus that comes and, you know, organized by the races that comes and picks them up. The world is totally different to when you and I might have been in.

SPEAKER_02: 23:46

Fabulous.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

You know, he didn't say very much about it, but now I hear snippets and I think you've got to let them try and find out what it is they want to do and let them do it within reason. And if you don't needle them too much, I hope he's not listening to this because you'll just come up again. But it's really funny how little stories come out and it's really nice to be part of their world, even though you're at home. arms length and that's um that's a really lovely quote actually reminds me of something that my mum used to say to me when um my kids were really really young or when it was just I had the first and if I was going out in the evening and I would let him go to sleep there. And my mum would always say to me, there's no direct, I don't know what the direct translation in English is, but she says, you have to let them go with your heart. She goes, go out, have a good time. When you come back, everything will be fine. And it's only taken 18 years, 19 years to work that one out. But I think it's so true. Letting them go with compassion is just such a lovely way of describing it. I think the gap year really helped me. It was very different to going to university because I had to just say, this is going to happen. He's going to do this. It's also really important to remember that this is the start of their journey into the world. And the more... they can work out, not necessarily do themselves, the more they can work out for themselves, the better they're going to be in the long run. You know, university is the easy thing in life. I think if your child can have, if this is what they want, a successful marriage and they can pay their bills or a happy partnership with someone and they're good parents, don't think you can ask for more than that. And this is their way of finding out how they problem solve, how they see the world, what matters to them.

SPEAKER_02: 26:04

No, I love that. That's such a wonderful perspective. Another thing that sprang to mind, I know when we were chatting, because I always mean, Sheena and I have known each other for ages, but I always like to have a bit of a brainstorm before actually recording, because you never know what's going to come out. And we come up with all sorts. And there was one lovely story, because distance is, is, I mean, because they go away for 12 weeks or 10 weeks at a time, it really doesn't matter whether they're... Eight, you say, Kate. Eight. They go away for eight weeks. It doesn't really matter whether they're half an hour down the road or whether they're in America. But you told the wonderful story about your father who came from Uganda to come to university. And again, you know, it was all letter... In my day, it was letter writing. I mean, I remember queuing up in halls on a Sunday evening to get the phone call home. And it does put it all in perspective, doesn't it? The fact that really, if anything does happen, they are only a shortish distance away. I

SPEAKER_00: 27:06

think that's one of the things that I always told myself when my dad came to study is, He left Uganda. It was the first time he had probably left the city he was all. No, he wasn't. He probably left the city he was born in before that. Got on a plane, came here. He was here for five years and he didn't have the money to go back. It was as simple as that. Once he'd finished five years later, you know, if you wanted to make a phone call, it had to be booked in in advance. Otherwise, it was all letter writing. And I just think, you know what? If the worst comes to the worst, he can hop on a train. I can drive down to Bath. If we had to, he could get in a taxi and come home. It's not all lost. And they're not... You know, we have, it can be expensive, but we have the ability to get close to them or be close. We have phones for God's sake. You know, I don't recommend it at all. I think I learned with the gap year, but, oh, actually I learned because my son went through that sort of 15 to 17 or 14 to 16 in COVID. But I also wouldn't location track them.

SPEAKER_02: 28:26

I've never done that, no.

SPEAKER_00: 28:28

I think I'd

SPEAKER_02: 28:29

worry more.

SPEAKER_00: 28:31

Yeah, I would as well. I don't need to know where he is at 4am. I'm better off sleeping in my bed undisturbed. That

SPEAKER_02: 28:37

just reminded me of something recently. He was in a taxi on his way back and we were trying to arrange a pickup point. And he actually sent me, this is my boy, sent me the live link so I could see his little head bobbling along the road. And it stopped. And I suddenly thought, oh my goodness. What's happened? And it wasn't. It was just the Wi-Fi or whatever cut out. And that's now. I immediately, and this is me with all my positive mindset, still my little mummy instinct kicked in and thought, why has my baby's head stopped

SPEAKER_00: 29:11

bobbling along the road? I just think sometimes I... I don't have to go through it when he was younger because of COVID. I can imagine if your children are younger and you're going through that, it's different and you want to keep an eye on them. But I think one of the things my husband and I said we actively not do is location track them. This is the funniest story. A person who I will not describe in any format to me told me that her daughter location tracked her parents so when she knew her parents were on the way back home she'd send all her friends home and they'd leave the house 10 minutes before mum and dad walked in and i just think whatever we do to them they'll turn it around on us and do it back ten tenfold and we won't even know they're doing it so that is

SPEAKER_02: 30:04

genius

SPEAKER_00: 30:06

that is genius

SPEAKER_02: 30:07

we're gonna have some uh offspring tuning into this thinking

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

Well, no, they are not better at tech. They just pick it up very quickly. They find the loopholes.

SPEAKER_02: 30:22

But it is. We're coming on to the A of the plan, which is accepting the new normal. And I don't just mean the new normal that we've heard, obviously, post-COVID. But there are things that are beyond our control. And I've been saying this way before the whole let them theory resurged. It is, if we don't accept that there are some things that we can't control, we're just going to get overwhelmed and end up feeling like poo because we're worrying about things that we've got no impact on. There's nothing we can do about it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:06

Just like that 9am call I had, God, mid-December, so... I'm at the hospital. I think I've broken my wrist. I'm two hours away. What can I do? And again, it was another, oh, it was escapades, university escapades. Let's file it under that. I don't need any more detail. And, you know, that's, I thought my son handled it remarkably. And I think those little opportunities were amazing. we want to control things are probably their best learning experiences. Did I wish he'd break his wrist and get a cast before a hot holiday? No, of course not. And have a very moody teenager. Sorry, I'm not

SPEAKER_02: 31:57

laughing. I'm like, talk about timing, though.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

Yeah, you know, he was... The arm got hot and sweaty under the cast. He was a bit moody. But... I have to say he handled it with such grace, more than me, more than me at that age. And I think those moments where we want to control are probably the ones where we actually need to sit back. And I think it's really important just to take a bit of time and work out what's going on in your life so you can give them that space.

SPEAKER_02: 32:31

I'm

SPEAKER_00: 32:33

saying this in hindsight. I don't know if I had... the wherewithal to work it out back then. It was only a year and a half ago, but you know, you have to

SPEAKER_02: 32:44

adjust. Mindful techniques as well can be really good just to ground ourselves, just to bring ourselves back into the moment, getting out in nature. And I say, I've got lots of top tips in my free book that I'll give you the way you find out how you can get it later on. But guilt is another thing I think that's important here, not to guilt trip them. not to why didn't you phone me you said you were going to do this and you haven't done this and because I think all we'll do is a push them away and be perhaps think how we were at that age and how we would have responded if our mother had said oh you didn't do this you didn't do that

SPEAKER_00: 33:27

Yeah, and I think sometimes this is the issue with having the phone and having constant contact. My parents knew I was going to call on a Sunday night and come hell or high water, one hour, two hours, because every child called their parents on the Sunday evening on that one crappy payphone with a stack of 10p's you'd managed to find. Yeah. And they had to sit there and wait. They didn't know if the call would come at quarter past six or 7.30. And I think sometimes the technology has changed us and how we interact with our kids. And I think maybe some people, yeah. I just think that has had a big impact on our behavior. And that adds to the guilt. And I think for me, one of the biggest lessons for me is, buy it it really makes all the difference a number of times I want to I wanted to say about the broken arms like what did you think you were doing it wouldn't have changed anything you know I wanted updates on how he was doing with the arms I'm not getting them he said I was waiting for an x-ray I couldn't have my phone yeah pretty obvious he was right all along and It's very easy for us. I think we live in a world of immediacy and instant gratification. And I think we expect that from our children. You know, I can't imagine what it would have been like for my grandmother to wait weeks for a letter or for my parents to wait those one or two hours just for a phone call with me sounding exhausted.

SPEAKER_02: 35:05

Oh, we're talking of grandparents. I don't know if you've ever done this, but with my grandma, bless her, we were so close. When I visited home... and then gone I was at university in Exeter so gone back to Exeter it was the three pips I don't know if you know what that I think so yes I used to phone yeah so rather than putting the money in you phone her let it ring twice put the receiver down then phone again let it ring ring three times whatever put the phone down and that was me letting her know that I was back safely at university That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 35:43

I don't, you see, I can't, I must have a really good memory about some things because I don't remember getting back on. I used to go from London to Manchester and then have to get the bus down to where my halls are. I don't think I let my parents know I got home safely, even on the free call system. I'm sure they told me to every single time, but I don't actually remember doing that.

SPEAKER_02: 36:13

I don't think I did it with mum and dad, but it was just a thing between me and grandma.

SPEAKER_00: 36:17

Yeah, and I think sometimes this is where I think perspective is really important. Just remember what it was like to be 18 or 19. And, you know, if it's not university and you're starting work, you've got some money in your pocket, you're meeting new people, you want to go out on a Friday night and have a bit of fun with new people. And I think it's really easy to forget that sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 36:42

I

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

have to say that when I look at some of the opportunities that are available to them, I know the job market is really hard. I think university certainly is a bit of a honeymoon period before they enter the real world. The opportunities they have to study abroad, to work abroad. You know, my son recently did. He worked at Twickenham. He was serving behind the bar. And he had the most. Yes. Yeah. Now he obviously wants to go to Lourdes and do exactly the same. And I know those opportunities were there for us. You just had to look a bit harder. But they're there. And I think there's so much fun. There's so many opportunities for them to grow. And I think what I would do to be 19 again and have that energy and bounce and let's do this. Let's go for it.

SPEAKER_02: 37:35

Well, you know, that brings us on to the end. The end of plan. Which I think we can capture a bit of what you were just saying there, Sheena, because it is about nurturing you. And it may seem tough if you're still at the beginning or it's still looming the whole emptiness journey. But trust us, there will come the epiphany moment. It won't be instant. It will be tough to get there. But we're here. Reach out. But there is a time to start exploring and although we may not have the energy of an 18 year old our midlife is still an exciting time and it is our time to try new things to take ourselves off the back burner and stop being like a dried out old pan and actually put ourselves first and to find What works for us? Find our own fabulous. Not what everyone else is doing. Not feeling we should be doing this. We should be playing golf. If you don't like golf, don't go and play golf. I did a bit of salsa dancing. I love it, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to tell everyone to go and start salsa dancing. But you, Sheena, came up with a beautiful quote. You said, my business and my lens are my new children. And I just love that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:57

Oh thank you I think for me things just fell into place really naturally with the kids getting older having to have a business plan you have to look at what's going on in your life so you know what's achievable. I just saw more space in my time for me to pursue what mattered to me. And I always just say, because obviously you have to be pretty careful with your lenses, I always say they're my new babies. And I've got some lovely little babies and they don't cry or complain or demand quite so much of you. But, you know, that's how I look at them and that's how I look at my business. And I think it's really important that in the midst of all that university application or job application is you know, a year or two before, just start thinking about what's there for you. You know, it might be, you might want to go to cushion making classes. You might want to join a running club, you know, but I just think it's, it's, it's a necessity because you need to fill the time and space, but who knows what you're going to end up discovering. I ended up, I always say to people, I fell into photography. I, took a career break I started studying again and I've never worked in London I was working in those awful places on the M4 corridor and things like that and it was so exciting to be in London I picked up my camera again that had nothing to do with what I was studying and I just think you have no idea if you go to a salsa class you don't know who you're going to meet and who's going to spark a conversation with you it could lead anywhere and I think the more things you try, the more opportunities and openings you're creating for yourself. And I think depending on what your life is like, if you're very busy with work, obviously time is limited, but I think it's really important to have those distractions for you. They're either a distraction or the road to a bigger opportunity. And depending on how much resource you personally have to give to it determines that. But yeah, yeah. I'm completely with you.

UNKNOWN: 41:17

I mean, that's one of the reasons I started Midlife Unlimited. Because it was like, I'd always fancied it. It was a, yes, I can do this.

SPEAKER_02: 41:26

And it's going quite well, thank you very much. And I'm loving every moment of it. But it is trying new things.

SPEAKER_00: 41:35

It is. And I think more than that... And this is something that's been really important for me in my business over the past year is having more conversations. You just have no idea what somebody's going to say to you that makes you think, oh, I didn't think of it like that. Or I never knew that. And I just think, you know, sometimes time and money means that you can't go and do that. Let me go sailing around the Greek islands to find myself. It doesn't happen to all of us. But the conversations you have with people are so powerful. I think you do have to make a little space for awareness and then go into those conversations.

SPEAKER_02: 42:19

I'm loving that. Yeah. Here's to having the conversations because that's what Midlife Unlimited is all about. And that's what we've been doing. We've been putting it out there. And thank you because you've shared some beautiful insights there. And I think, I hope... that what we've been saying will resonate with fabulous listeners who have been through, are facing, know people who are facing bird launching. So I think we'll just recap on the plan. Be proud. Let go. Accept your new reality and nurture you. And there's no right or wrong. And as we just said, The important thing is just to have the conversations and talk about it. So it's time for you to answer my three questions now, Sheena. And these are the same, you're not going to escape. These are the same three questions that I ask each of my fabulous female guests on Midlife Unlimited. So the first question is, what is your midlife passion? The piece of music that fires you up. I want to hear this. You're allowed

SPEAKER_00: 43:37

to sing. Oh, it is. Oh, my God. If I sang, if I sang, I would break everybody's loudspeakers. I actually have the most horrendous voice. Oh, I know. I tried singing lessons. I know it's factual. There is a fabulous song called Setting the World on Fire by by Pink and Kenny Chesney and that song just makes me happy. There's a line in it that I think probably sums up what's most important to me and it says, we were laughing until we were breathless and I think the older we grow, the less we do that and that's just, oh, it's so nice to remind yourself of that feeling.

SPEAKER_02: 44:25

Nice.

SPEAKER_00: 44:27

That is brilliant,

SPEAKER_02: 44:28

that feeling, just laughing, almost to the point of having a little tiny wee.

SPEAKER_00: 44:36

No one said that.

SPEAKER_02: 44:37

No one said that. No, I said that. Sorry, I've lowered the tone. It was going so well. It was going so well. I'm going to have to go and check that out. I do love pink, so I think I'm going to have to go and have a little Spotify search after this.

SPEAKER_00: 44:50

It has all the feeling of a reckless 17-year-old, which I love. quite apt for this

SPEAKER_02: 44:57

episode as

SPEAKER_00: 44:58

well

SPEAKER_02: 44:59

it is it is see you're nurturing you now you're you're embracing your bird launchingness

SPEAKER_00: 45:06

it is it's just it's a celebration it's lovely go listen to it

SPEAKER_02: 45:11

we're talking of celebrations and i'd like to hear your answer to question two which is what is your midlife mantra the phrase that you live your midlife by

SPEAKER_00: 45:24

so i don't know if this is a midlife mantra but i've held on to this quote ever since i heard it um and it's as simple as if you're lucky enough to be at the beach you're lucky enough and i love being i used to think i love being by the sea but i love being by large bodies of water and i don't have to go into the water to ensure i could just look at the sea for ages and i think The more I have that quote, it's actually on my WhatsApp messages. Very unprofessional, but I love it because it sums me up. And I just think I don't like the word gratitude because it's overused. But I think it's just a quiet appreciation for the good things in our life because it's so easy to overlook them. It really is. Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 46:13

that's beautiful. And again, that sums up what we've been talking about today, because this is a time of reminding yourself about what is great. And it's going to be a tough ride. We're not sugarcoating it, but there is joy to be found, definitely. There's joy to be found.

SPEAKER_00: 46:31

There is.

SPEAKER_02: 46:32

There's a lot of joy to be found.

SPEAKER_00: 46:34

Absolutely. It's

SPEAKER_02: 46:38

waiting. So to round off your three questions, I would love to know what is the title of your autobiography?

SPEAKER_00: 46:46

Oh, I've really struggled with this. I think for me, it would have to be something around breaking the rules. I would love to come up with a short pithy title, but I was never good at following rules. And then you work in a corporate world and you just, it kind of beats any of the life out of you. And I think it's genuinely something that happens as you get older, but you just think, don't play by all the rules. There are always some that have to be broken, and this one isn't for my kids, but a little bit of risky playtime is always good. It makes you

SPEAKER_02: 47:27

happy. I'm all for playfulness. I'm all for unleashing childlike curiosity. As you say, being a bit reckless, not in a way that's going to hurt, not in a way that ideally is going to result in broken wrists and that kind of thing, but... shaking things up a bit,

SPEAKER_00: 47:45

going for it. Yeah, I totally agree. And I just think a little bit of play and a little bit of risk is good for everybody. Now, play

SPEAKER_02: 47:55

and not necessarily risk, but something a little bit different, are two words that I would use to describe your gorgeous photos. And I know there are going to be ladies listening who would like to get in touch with you and find out more because... Brand image, family photos. You need to check Sheena's workout. So how can they? Thank you. No, I mean that. How can they get in touch with you? Obviously, all your contact details would be in the show notes for the episode

SPEAKER_01: 48:28

and

SPEAKER_02: 48:29

on the Midlife Unlimited podcast website. But if you could talk us through how to get in contact with you.

SPEAKER_00: 48:36

Yeah, absolutely. They can come straight to my website, which is SheenaSabawal.com. And you will have to refer to the show notes for that because my surname is not much fun. Otherwise, I'm on Instagram and it's really easy to find me there, Sheena Sabawal Photography. And I'm also on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02: 48:58

excellent and again as I said all your links and their live links will be on the show notes for this fabulous episode and on the Midlife Unlimited podcast website and well as for me I'd love your feedback on today's episode has it resonated what does it make you think about empty nesting and bird launching now so yeah if you could leave a review that would be wonderful and you can email or text me via the link in the show notes and obviously Obviously, if you'd like a copy or a free copy of my e-book, Your Empty Nest Epiphany, A Beginner's Guide to Bird Launching, just drop me a line and I will send that across to you. Or come and join the Midlife Unlimited podcast Facebook group. Again, links in the show notes. And you'll find the website link with details of my exclusive VIP midlife metamorphosis coaching. That's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? So thank you so much for joining me today, Sheena. It's been an absolute pleasure. I knew it would be. You haven't disappointed. And thank you all for listening today. I look forward to you tuning in next week because don't forget Midlife Unlimited has a new episode every Thursday available wherever you listen to your podcasts. So thanks for listening. Thank you for joining me, Sheena. And here's to living Midlife Unlimited. Bye.